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good evening, and welcome to ayman tonight. the rematch nobody wanted, it's trump versus biden again. both men are in georgia holding dueling rallies with two starkly different visions for america. plus, in search of a spine, where the backbones of the republican party? as you can see, they rebuked trump one moment, and kiss the ring the next. rage against the comedian, kathy griffin says she is sorry for apologizing for the infamous trump photo. she is here tonight with a warning to all who think they are me and from tron. let's do it.

as of this week, we now know for certain that the 2024 general election will be a contest between president joe biden and his predecessor, donald trump. it is the rematch almost no one wanted, but despite the fact that these two men ran against one another in 2020, the stakes of this election are much higher. never before in american history have voters faced such a stark contrast. such a drastic choice between two vastly different visions of america. to quote the wall street journal, are we a resurgent country making steady progress towards a future of shared prosperity, or are we a dystopian backwater on a path to ruin? these two men and their respective platforms could not be more at odds. in joe biden, you have a man who has vowed to protect

women's reproductive rights, and in donald trump, he will allow republican lawmakers to launch even more extreme attacks on the female body and autonomy. in joe biden, you have a man who has done more to address climate change than any president in american history, while donald trump has promised to drill baby drill, and called green energy a new scam business. in joe biden, you have a man who has steered the economy through covid-19 without causing a recession, with inflation now lower than any other major advanced economy. the stock market is breaking records as confidence in the economy continues to grow. donald trump, however, says that he hopes the economy crashes before the next election. in joe biden, you have a man who has pledged to protect and preserve our democracy, by contrast, donald trump is openly, brazenly touting his authoritarian desires, saying that he will be a dictator on day one if elected. he and his allies at the heritage foundation plan to get

the federal bureaucracy, firing 50,000 government workers and replacing them with pre-vetted mack on loyalists, and he will recognize the doj against his political enemies. he warned about it on the stump earlier in georgia. it's not hyperbole. our freedoms are literally on the ballot this november. donald trump and the trinity republicans are trying to take our freedoms away, and by the way, not all republicans -- this ain't your fathers republican party. these guys are different. >> now, considering all of this, i have one question for everyone. how is this race even remotely competitive? how is donald trump, according to the latest new york times siena college poll, actually leaving joe biden by five points? president biden messaging is not lending, perhaps. neither is a clear and glaring dangers of a second trump presidency with american voters. what about the contrast between

these men that is not getting through to the american people? that's where we kick off this hour. carlos cabela, a former congressman and nbc political analyst, and former senator barbara boxer. ruth ben giat. ruth, i will start with you, a man who has pledged to be a dictator on day one, and somehow, despite his threats to our democracy, he is holding neck and neck with joe biden and beating him in some of these polls. how do you explain this phenomenon? when you look back in history, are there any patterns that can help explain to our viewers and to us why we are seeing this phenomenon play out? >> trump has been stupendously successful in building a leadership cult, a cult of personality, and convincing people, and it's quite

extraordinary. i don't know any other case in history where someone pulled off a mass deception at this scale, in an open society with pluralistic media, and here i'm referring to his claim that he won the 2020 election. hitler, mussolini, other dictators, they did this in a closed society, to convince people of their lies. donald trump has done this in an open society, which speaks to the strength of his cult. he has also been able to play the victim very successfully, and this does not get enough attention in that it makes his followers feel protective of him. and, anything else that happens to him is just confirmation of this belief that he is a victim being persecuted. january 6th was an attempt to save a distressed leader, and people rallied, and so this is a continuation of that. that ideology of saving the leader from an unjust fate.

>> senator, let me ask you about the other contrast, and that is between biden and trump, which is so apparent to anyone who sees the difference between these two men. earlier today, the president sat down with my colleague jonathan capehart and talked about his regret for using the term, illegal, to describe the undocumented immigrant, who killed laken riley. take a listen to this. >> i shouldn't have used them illegal. it's undocumented. and look, when i spoke about the difference between trump and me, one of the things i talked about at the border is the way he talks about vermin, the way he talks about these people polluting blood. it's also but i'm not going to do, what i won't do. i'm not going to treat any of these people with disrespect. >> just this evening, you had a rally in georgia where trump blasted biden for walking that back. listen. >> they just told me prior to what i'm doing right now, that

joe biden went on television and apologized for calling laken riley's murderer illegal. he did not want to call him illegal. [ audience reacts ] >> he said he should've called them undocumented, not illegal, and he wanted to apologize. he wanted to apologize. >> your reaction to that, senator? >> i'm not shocked at donald trump. the bottom line is, he has a rally, and this is a tragedy that happened to this family, that they lost this child, this young woman, and they had pictures of her. fine. why don't they come to the table with this president, who has agreed to deal with this

immigration issue? he has agreed to work in a bipartisan way, and you know, i kept thinking to myself, that is fine. he will handle it. he handled it at the state of the union. he said her name. he said it was horrible. he is a compassionate man, and maybe at a biden rally, they will have pictures of her, but they will also have pictures of all the kids that died in schools. they want to anything about that. they want to anything about immigration, so, to me, nothing that donald trump says surprises me, but ayman, i think we have to get back to basics. as ronald reagan said, the best social program is a job, so i think we need to start with that. democracy and the threats to it, and all these other issues, mostly, people care about their quality of life, and we have a job creating president, versus a job destroying president. last point on that, i looked up the stats.

we started keeping statistics on job creation and presidents 67 years ago. donald trump is the only president in history to leave office with fewer jobs than when he took office. joe biden, 15 million jobs created. history breaking. there is a lot we can talk about , a lot. >> let me ask you about that, congressman. the economy is very strong by any metric. the stock market is enjoying record highs. employment is skyrocketing. inflation is getting under control, continuing to make progress on that front. what happened to james carville's old adage, it's the economy, stupid.? as a former senator was saying, and as the numbers clearly indicate, why is this race even close? >> two issues. inflation, which we are talking about. immigration, which we just discussed, and yes, inflation

is easing. we know the jobs numbers are good. people are looking at their 401(k)s and feeling pretty good these days, however, two people who are lower income, middle- class people, inflation is still an issue, because although it easing, it's not like we are seeing deflation. prices are not going back down to what they were two or three years ago, and there are people struggling. it doesn't surprise me when you look at some of this polling. president biden is doing better with groups that are favorable to republicans, like college educated voters, upper-middle- class voters, and he has had some erosion with lower income people, union workers, hispanics, african americans. the president is really going to have to do a good job over the next eight months of explaining to those groups why things are going to continue getting better as wages go up and inflation continues easing. the problem is, a lot of those people still aren't feeling the

recovery, and they are instinctively turning back to donald trump, because they think that things were better back then, economically. that is going to be something that president biden is going to have to deal with over the next few months. >> in addition to those points, the former congressman mentioned the inflation and the easing of inflation, as well as immigration, has the administration's response to the humanitarian crisis in gaza become too much of a sticking point for voters of a certain demographic? what does he need to do now between this week, when the general election officially kicks off, and the november election? >> it's a very tough issue for the president, and i will tell you why, but i also want to say to the good congressman, you are right. people think in their minds the economy was better under trump. it was a disaster. the lost jobs were history making, and the bottom line is,

people were dying of the epidemic. people just need to be reminded of the facts, and the beauty is , i think that will come true, but ayman, there is no question they are group of voters, many of them, who are very concerned about what is happening in gaza, and i know what the president wants. he wants it to be over. he wants to have a two state solution. he wants there to be a cease- fire, so that the hostages can come home. and, the bottom line is, some things are out of your control. i know the good congressman, and a lot of times there were things we couldn't control. he will try to control it by putting more pressure on netanyahu. that's what i think. and, the world has to understand, none of it would've happened if hamas wasn't running rampant over there.

>> former senator barbara boxer, thank you so much for joining us. ruth and carlos, please stick around. i have more to discuss with you after the break. next, a pathological liar and sniveling coward. republicans in their own words about the man they are now endorsing for president. t take if allergic to nurtec. allergic reactions can occur, even days after using. most common side effects were nausea, indigestion, and stomach pain. ask about nurtec odt.

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donald trump for president. the same man he blamed for the january 6th insurrection, and his wife, former transportation secretary, elaine chao, has been the subject of racist attacks by donald trump, but mcconnell is not an outlier, he's just the latest in a long line of republicans, who have shamelessly flip-flopped from condemning trump to being an ardent cheerleader, and you better believe we brought the receipts. watch. >> this man is a pathological liar. donald, you are sniveling coward. leave heidi the hell alone. >> i'm proud to endorse donald trump for president. i support him enthusiastically. >> i want to be a good ally for the president of the united states, and redeliver him to the white house. >> i disagree with the president's rhetoric numerous times when it comes to how he addresses women. >> i'm proud to be the first member of congress to endorse president trump for re- election. the first. >> trump and i have had a hell

of a journey. all i can say is, count me out. enough is enough. >> i've come to like president trump, and i'm going to help him become president of the united states. >> the president bears responsibility for wednesday's attack on congress by mob rioters. he should have immediately denounced the mob when he saw what was unfolding. >> can he count on your support? >> yes. >> that's an endorsement. >> i will support president trump. >> i believe we need to hold the president accountable. i hold them accountable for the events that transpired, for the attack on the capitol last wednesday. >> there is only one man who can save america, and that man is donald trump. >> there is no question, that president trump is practically and morally responsible for provoking the events of the day. >> i would support the nominee for president, even if it were the former president. >> wow.

well, you sat there, my panel is back. congressman, i will start with you. what do you think was the most shameful flip-flopped out of the ones we just saw? i would say mcconnell, it isn't that surprising. he stuck around with trump after charlottesville, for covid, helped him survive two impeachments, but who do you think is the most shameful out of all of those? >> the ted cruz one is tough to watch, especially with the insults against his wife, heidi. that was one of the first, dramatic flips early on in this whole process, back in 2016. look, what brings all of these people together is the desire to remain in power, and it's very clear that all of those individuals have serious objections about donald trump, have serious concerns about donald trump. i know that some of them say negative things about donald trump privately, but they want to remain in power, and they

are willing to pay the very high price of praising someone, who they know is dangerous, who they know has done horrible things, who they know has lied repeatedly, so that is just the state of the republican party today. it is donald trump's republican party, and most republicans in elected office are willing to do whatever it takes to stay in office, and that means wholeheartedly supporting donald trump. >> ruth, when you see republicans like mcconnell and others, ted cruz, go out of their way to kiss the ring, we know this is a page out of an authoritarian playbook, but how do you explain it? have you ever seen loyalty like this that does not come at the barrel of a gun? >> that is actually the saddest thing about this, that in many regimes, if you criticize the leader, even if he is no longer

in office, you go to jail or you are shot. here, what is at stake is, they are losing office, but also, their reputations, because for those who are very wealthy or wealthy through marriage like mitch mcconnell, and this is also true of foreign dictatorships, where the cronies are very wealthy, you can't really buy people off, so what you do is you threaten to shame them, and uncover their secrets, and that is called kompromat. donald trump is an expert at that through roger stone. he also uses humiliation. that clip he played of lindsey graham, who had said in 2016, if we nominate trump, we will get destroyed and we will deserve it, and now he is out there, playing this dictator

game of ritual humiliation to keep people in line and remind them of what awaits them if they open their mouths and say the wrong things. >> i have to ask you, congressman, about one republican, that has not endorsed trump yet. nikki haley. she has hinted she may not endorsed him, but do you think she will pull a mcconnell and come around? >> well, i think the safe bet is that nikki haley will eventually support donald trump, but i truly do believe that she is exploring other options. she is keeping everything on the table. some people i know have tried to recruit her to run with a third party. i think nikki haley is keeping her powder dry, but if we go by the past behavior of almost every republican, who is aspiring to elected office, or who is in elected office, they ultimately end up falling in line. >> ruth, what typically happens when someone falls out of line in an authoritarian regime?

what is the risk for nikki haley here? maybe we think of it politically speaking, liz cheney and adam kinzinger, but we will talk about it later on in the show. retribution and revenge are, certainly, looming large for many politicians in this country, if donald trump is re- elected. >> yeah, and i also want to talk about physical threats. it's an epidemic of threat, threats against members of congress, threats to members of congress are up over 400%, and they were up several hundred percent just during the trump administration, and i'm very haunted. these people, who now, have had years of this conditioning, i'm haunted by wind those who voted to impeach, republicans who voted to impeach trump a few years ago. there was one representative, representative meyer, who said we expect someone is going to try to kill us, and he had to buy body armor.

this is what happens when you have donald trump, who has allied with proud boys, with hugs. i mean, there were actual nazis at the political conservative action conference. he has armed all of these extremists to the teeth, and the republican elite know this. this is yet another symptom of the prevailing authoritarian culture in our country. >> certainly, a sad one. >> if i could just say, i know there are cases where people have received death threats, and i know that some of donald trump's supporters can be fairly intimidating, but most republicans, who support donald trump, don't do it because they are afraid for their physical integrity. they are afraid to lose elections. that is why they are supporting donald trump it >> that is sad in and of itself.

ruth ben-ghiat and carlos curbelo, it's always great to see you both. next, the supreme court decision to keep trump on the ballot surprised no one, and later, comedian kathy griffin with a warning to americans, who do not believe that donald trump's promise of revenge is serious. s. don't take if allergic to nurtec. allergic reactions can occur, even days after using. most common side effects were nausea, indigestion, and stomach pain. ask about nurtec odt.

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and help you find the right investments. so great getting to know you, let's take a look at your new investment plan. ok, great! this should have you moving in the right direction. thanks jen. get ongoing advice; and manage your investments in the chase mobile app. this week, in a unanimous decision, the supreme court overturned a colorado court, that kicked donald trump off the states presidential primary ballot. in the 13 page opinion, the justices ruled that states do not have the authority to disqualify candidates for federal office, but five of the courts conservative justices took things a step further, arguing that section 3 of the 14th amendment is not self- executing, meaning, congressional action is needed to bar a candidate from the ballot. the decision throws cold water on these conservative, so-called writing beliefs, the original

is impaired the idea that the constitution is a dead document, only to be interpreted as the way it was at the time of its ratification. it is simple. the justices did not want to throw trump off the ballot, so they didn't. "this case reveals original is him as practiced by the justices for the fraud it actually is, a framework for justifying the results that the jurists handpicked by the conservative legal movement." noah bookbinder is the president for citizens for responsibility in washington, the group that filed the suit on behalf of colorado voters. it's great to have you back on the show. we have been talking throughout this entire legal process, so it's nice to have you now that the decision has been rendered. after oral arguments, is it safe to say that most legal experts believe that colorado's court decision would be overturned? did anything from the ruling catch you by surprise, even in the anonymity of the way the

justices decided it? >> i think a piece that is, maybe not surprising, but really striking, is that not a single one of the justices in these three opinions wrote a single sentence taking issue with the conclusion from the court below that donald trump engaged in insurrection, and so none of them came out and exonerated him. none of them said he did not do it. all they did was take away this enforcement mechanism, so they were able to, essentially, let donald trump off on a technicality, while tacitly acknowledging that, in fact, he engaged in insurrection. >> and her concurring opinion, justice amy coney barrett appeared to take a shot at the liberals on the court, who she cautioned not to amplify disagreement in such a politically distant -- charged case. she went on to say that all nine justices agree on the outcome of the case. that is the message americans

should take him. is that the message that you think americans should take him from this case? >> not at all. i think, as you said earlier, the court, largely, decided that it was not comfortable taking donald trump off the ballot, so they found a way to do it. it's a shoddily reasoned distinction that goes much further than it needed to, and even the basic decision, it's really hard to justify under law, so i think that the american people take away is that the court reached an objective that it wanted to, even though the justices understood that donald trump attacked the democracy, and they chose not to do anything about it. >> what is the path forward here? since that enforcement has to go through congress, is that even possible when you have a republican party, that is about to renominate an alleged insurrectionist, in this case, as a candidate for the presidency under the republican banner? >> it sure seemed like a

difficult prospect, to say that in the months between now and the election, or at least, between now and the certification of the election, that she would be expecting congress to pass legislation, empowering states or federal courts to enforce this provision, which is what the majority of the supreme court seems to say you need, even though there is nothing in the constitution justifying that. i think that is a tall order. in the longer-term, maybe we will get to a place where congress can pass that kind of legislation and allow the constitution to work the way the framers of the 14th amendment wanted it to, but in the short term, it's deeply problematic if, in fact, that's what the majority opinion is requiring, which is not entirely correct. >> before we go, i wanted to ask you about another case involving the ex-president, his claims over absolute immunity.

this week, we learned that the supreme court will take up that case on the very last day of the term. thursday, april 25th, that is already raising questions. the colorado ruling provided the justices, or, proved that the justices can move quickly when they want to and render a decision. what does this delay due to our democratic process, and how important is it for voters to have a conclusion to this case before the november election? you were involved in the colorado case. the court operated at a certain pace, now, they are operating on a different pace for this one, that, obviously, has consequential reach for many presidents to come. >> this one is troubling. we thought the colorado case was straightforward. obviously, the supreme court disagreed, but they moved quickly. this one is incredibly straightforward. it is, really obvious, that this assertion of absolute immunity has no basis in law, so we would hope that the court

would be able to move really quickly and allow this case to go to trial, and for the american people to have a clear answer, long before they have to vote. it's disappointing that the court appears to be moving slowly. we can only hope that after that argument, it will move quickly. maybe they will have their decisions largely written before that. we have to hope for that. we have to hope that, particularly, after this colorado ruling, trying to look fair, this court will come to the obvious conclusion that donald trump does not have immunity, in this case has to go to trial, and quickly. >> let's just hope that the justices actually do the right thing this time around. noah bookbinder, it's always a pleasure. great to see if it >> thanks so much for having me. that is rage against the comedian. kathy griffin is here to talk about being the test case for trump retribution, and she has a warning to all americans, as he vows more revenge if given a second term. eight mo regnant... that's a different story.

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tonight, we need to talk about revenge and retribution, and what happens when a former president promises both as he runs for office. >> november 5th will be our new liberation day, but for the liars and cheaters and fraudsters and censors and imposters, who have commandeered our government, it will be their judgment day. it will be their judgment day. [ cheers and applause ] >> trump later went on fox, saying that his ultimate revenge is victory. former members of trump's orbit have their doubts about it, such as retired lieutenant colonel alexander penman, who served as a top ukraine expert on the national security council. he was a key witness in trump's first impeachment trial, testifying against his boss, sing there was no doubt about what trump was demanding in his july 25th phone call with

ukrainian president, volodymyr zelenskyy. in 2020, vindman was ousted after trump's acquittal. all these years later, his wife spoke to nbc news, saying that her level of concern is so high that she was forgoing her 50th birthday celebration to save money, in case trump returns to the white house and tries to retaliate against her husband. they are not alone in this, based on reporting from nbc news. interviews with a dozen people, who have drawn trump's ire for various reasons, revealed deep worry that he will seek retribution if he wins another term. fearful of being hounded by investigators, prosecuted, or stripped of their livelihoods, some are planning to leave the country if trump is sworn in. others are consulting attorneys or setting aside money to fight back, in case they are targeted either by trump's administration, or by his republican allies in congress. a former white house press secretary for trump, stephanie grisham, says she is part of a text chain, in which folks

discuss moving to countries without extradition treaties, just in case trump comes back. let's not forget that you can be a republican voter, and still be a candidate for revenge in donald trump's gop. on his failed social media site, trump warned that anyone that contributes to be haley campaign would be permanently barred from the maga camp. a real unifier, the former president. a stark contrast to president biden's hopes for the country. >> my lifetime has taught me to embrace freedom and democracy. a future based on core values, that defined america. honesty, decency, dignity, equality, to respect everyone, to give everyone a fair shot, to give hate no safe harbor. other people my age see it differently. the american story of resentment, revenge and retribution, that is not me.

>> but, revenge and retribution is donald trump. he has proved it, and derailed lives because of it, and for proof, you need to look no further than the story of comedian, kathy griffin. in 2017, griffin became public enemy number one, for a photo shoot, in which she held a plastic trump mask, with catchup on it. no matter what you think of that photo, one thing is certain, it was not criminal. as of being blacklisted in hollywood and publicly ostracized was not enough, she said she was ultimately investigated by the u.s. government for conspiracy to assassinate the president of the united states, putting her on no-fly lists across the globe. thankfully, she was able to evade those charges, as she so famously does, she flipped the script, thanks in part to advice she got from fellow comedian, jim carrey. she turned the derailment of her lifetime into a self financed film, a hell of a story.

>> you don't want the president of the united states deciding which television shows you watch, so, like i said, i was a test case, and now i'm on a mission to make sure that they never, ever, are allowed to do to anyone else, like they did to me. not michelle wolf from the correspondence dinner, not samantha be, not anybody. not anyone in entertainment, not in any field, not on my watch. no more, no way. >> that was six years ago, so how does kathy griffin view that mission now? she is here onset with me in los angeles to answer that question and talk about her new tour, after this. after this (♪ and you realize you're in love... steve? with a laundry detergent. (♪♪) gain flings. seriously good scent. with nurtec odt, i can treat a migraine when it strikes and prevent migraine attacks, all in one. don't take if allergic to nurtec. allergic reactions can occur, even days after using. most common side effects were

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nausea, indigestion, and stomach pain. ask about nurtec odt. for the girl, who has never done anything right in her life, when a female agent said, what would you say if the president walks through that door right now? somehow, i channeled my inner martha stewart and i simply said, i would say hello. and, i was exonerated. >> that was kathy griffin on how she faced federal interrogation for conspiracy to assassinate the president. yes, that's what it would -- was. all because donald trump was upset that she took a photo of a mask that looked like him with ketchup on it, and all these years later, the world is waking up to realize, maybe the outrage over the photo was a tad overblown. for the first time in six years, kathy is back on the road for her, my life on the ptsd list

tour. she is putting from behind her, to make you laugh. the emmy award-winning comedian, kathy griffin, is here on set in los angeles, and from miami, my good friend, katie phang. the host of the katie phang show here on 200 i have to start with you, kathy. you say you are not sorry for the joke that you made. what made you now realize that you are not sorry about all the outrage that happened back then, and what transpired? >> i didn't realize the extent of the trump machine when they are upset with someone, but the situation with me was unprecedented. there have been comics like the great lenny bruce and george carlin, and i'm not putting myself in the class, but they were harassed by police. never has a comedian been harassed by the department of justice, two agencies within the department of justice, the u.s. attorney's office and the secret service, and actually, jason leopold filed a freedom

of information act for me, and it showed how serious the oval office and the attorney general were about charging me with conspiracy to assassinate the president of the united states. >> you are someone with means, someone who is high-profile. someone who, obviously, was not threatening the president of the united states in any real manner, so the take away from your experience has been what for the ordinary american? because, if they can do that to you, someone who is visible and high-profile, and again, with means, what can they do to the average american, who does not have the ability that you do? >> the white house can do, pretty much, anything they want to if they set their mind to it, especially when using an arm like the department of justice, and by the way, i am not antigovernment. i would say that i think that the fbi may have saved my life the times that they would come over and go over credible threats, versus non-credible threats with me, which was quite often, i think that people should understand,

believe it or not, their vote matters, and it's not just the presidential, it's the down ballot. so, what happened to me could happen to you, because i was, literally, just taking a photo, which i thought would be outrageous, and maybe live on a blog for two days or something, and i am suggesting, from what i learned, that the fact that the photo lived on tmz, and the company seems to have a very cozy relationship with donald trump, meaning harvey levin, and ami media, which owns the national enquirer, they really amplified that photo a lot with the tabloids, all the tabloids they do, and remember, they got immunity in the robert mueller case, which is not something i ever required. i would just suggest that if the white house decides to, actually, attack a private citizen, which is what i am, ultimately, they have the means to do it, and all i have to do is lawyer up, but i was interrogated under oath, and they were very serious about that charge. >> katie, let's talk about the

law here, and what the first amendment does and does not do. how did the doj, ultimately, get away with investigating kathy as they did? as she was saying, a private citizen exercising her first amendment rights. this is not a private corporation, who may have rules or policies in place for employees. this was, what we would like to think was one of our most sacred, fundamental rights. >> let me be clear. there is a federal statute, that understandably exists, in order to protect people like the president and other federal officials from credible threats of harm, and i have to use that adjective, credible, because for anyone to think that what kathy did was anything other than an expression of art, and expression of what she thought was her personal opinion, that is an absurdity, and that is exactly what donald trump does. think about it. donald trump actually likes to hide behind protected speech. he likes to claim when he tells people to come and stormed the united states capitol, that that is protected, speedy

speech, and when a citizen like kathy griffin tries to do, suddenly, it's not a threat of harm to the president. understanding that, you are exactly right. what kathy and others, including michael cohen, for example. if you recall, michael cohen was thrown back into jail when he said that he had a tell-all book that was coming out, and a federal judge found that that was retaliation. what you're seeing is, and it's specific to the trump administration, i want to be very clear. donald trump weaponizing his own department of justice to be able to go after private citizens, and even though you see someone like kathy, who is brilliant and successful, and unbelievably creative fighting back, you're right, not ever but he has the means, the wherewithal, or the willingness to be able to do so, and that is why when we say, we have to listen to what donald trump is saying, what is going to do to his opponents, what is going to do to the people that say things that are counter to what he stands for. he is telling us what he is going to do, and we have to listen to it loud and clear.

>> katie, do you think that based on what you know with the details of this case, that kathy's first amendment rights were violated by the department of justice? >> yeah, absolutely, and i think if you look at the actual cases that actually have been investigated by federal law enforcement authorities, they are definitely not what you saw kathy do, and i think what happens here is, it's all situational. you have to consider the environment within which things happened with kathy. when that was happening, he had a trump president we had a trump administration, you had a trump department of justice. that is the real color behind why things are done, and i think in this particular incidents, kathy, clearly, if people are listening to what she is saying, she had to sit and be interrogated by federal law enforcement authorities and the united states secret service for what she did. that is unbelievably terrifying. that is unbelievably daunting. that is unbelievably expensive in many ways. i'm not just talking money.

i'm talking about your ability to live freely in a democracy, and i think that is really important for people to listen to. >> yeah, it is, extremely, and more people are listen because you are back out on tour. >> i'm off the no-fly list but i want to mention that i was also on the no-fly list and the interpol list, making it impossible for me to make a living. it's something that you would not wish on anybody else, but i want to say, my cancellation, when i say the feds have never gone after anyone, i meant in entertainment, because michael cohen, i believe his first amendment rights were taken advantage of as well. >> is a good point, because we think about this not just in terms of what it cost you, the actual ordeal, and as you just now said, the cost of living as a result of being put on a no- fly list. you are back out on tour, and if i can say, your first tour was about warning the public about what you went through. what is this tour about? what is the message that you are telling people about your ptsd experience? >> i have been diagnosed with

ptsd, and i sort of giggle at it, because as a comic, i thought it was only for combat veterans. the show is called my life on the ptsd list, harkening back to my show called, my life on the d list. there are still a lot of fun, celebrity stories, that i talk a lot about ptsd. i also have lung cancer, even though i never smoked. i talk about all this stuff in a way that's relatable, and i asked the audience, clap if you have been affected by cancer in any way, and people clap, so that tells me it's okay to talk about it. i also do encourage people to vote, and i kind of get on a soapbox every show and remind people that elections are just every four years or every two years, that they are every year and that every vote matters. >> no, that's a very important message, and we are so grateful for everything you're doing. i'm so happy to see and hear that you're doing well. >> i'm working for back to work. i can't believe it. i'm so excited to be on the road. >> i do have to ask you right now, tomorrow, a big event. i can't get this interview go without any oscar predictions

you want to make tomorrow >> it's the year of barbie. come on, i am in pink. i know barbie is not up for best picture, but there is a great take away from that, and i also loved oppenheimer, so barbenheimer worked for me, and i will be watching every minute of it. i loved the preshow, and i love to see what people are wearing, and who is naughty, and who is nice. >> i'm so happy to see that you are welcome and having a voice in this very critical year. best of luck to you going forward. thank you, kathy griffin did my friend, katie phang in miami, thank you for joining us. be sure to catch kathy's new standup tour, my life on the ptsd list at a city near you. she is stopping in more than 40 markets. start another hour of ayman starts after a quick break. don't go anywhere. shingrix is a vaccine used to prevent shingles in adults 50 years and older. shingrix does not protect everyone and is not for those with severe allergic reactions to its ingredients or to a previous dose. an increased risk of guillain-barré syndrome

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on this new hour of ayman, an exclusive with president joe biden, his first sitdown interview since the state of the union clarifying a misstep in his address, and more. also this hour, another trump in control, lara trump is in rnc leadership, believe it or not, and the question is, what could go wrong? and the zone of interest is an oscar contender that won't let us look away. why? one of the producers is here to discuss that and more. let's